Is it possible that Bill's psychosis runs so deep that it has now afflicted his cognitive ability to the point that he can lie and distort the truth without realizing it? Is it possible that even when confronted with what he has reported versus what the facts are that he really cannot even see those lies because he, in his own twisted and demented mind, cannot be wrong? Well, I gues anything is possible when it comes to the pyschotic. Today he took issue with what I wrote about his statements regarding what Tom Metzger of White Aryan Resistance had said to him - and the way that Bill reported it. Let's look at the exchange between them and the end product. Bill published what he claimed to be an email exchange between he and Metzger on his blog - here is that exchange:
Email #1:
From: WARMETZGER@aol.com Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 22:03:45 EDT
Subject: Re: Cliff Herrington / Pedophilia
To: dhyphen@yahoo.com
In a message dated 7/9/2006 2:03:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dhyphen@yahoo.com writes:
Terrible Tommy:
Michael Blevins called me today and says you have
information on Cliff Herrington having molested
children in the 1970's and 1980's.
What do you know about that I can publish?
Bill
I will have to recheck my source he is not on the web. Don't print it unless I verify. I know a few years ago he showed up on my friends door step in Tulsa wanting to move in and borrow money. He was living with a family in a car. My friend said no way. It was then as I recall that the person said he had some kind of complaint out on him in Wisconsin or Ilinois and had to skip the area. But at the time I didn't pay much attention other than my friend thinking he was white trash. I have never met the man so I do not know personally.My contact will get back to me tomorrow. TT
Email #2:
In a message dated 7/9/2006 10:55:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dhyphen@yahoo.com writes:
There was a brief story in the Tulsa World about the
car bomb attempt.
I missed it .
The story is that around 1993 I was visiting Dennis Mahon in Tulsa .Mahon received a call while I was present from Herrington who ask to stay for a few days . He was on the road living in his car. Mahon said he might be able to put him up for a few days. Herrington then said that he had a wife and three kids with him. Mahon has a small two bedroom bachelor pad with his brother and said no way could he handle that many more people to which Herrington replied that he heard Mahon had a six bedroom house .Mahon laughed and said goodbye.
It seems that the reason Herrington was on the road was that he fled Minneapolis because a grand jury was seated investigating his having sex with a 15 year old girl. I don't know whether they indicted or not. That's all I know about it. TT
On Metzger's July 11, 2006, radio show Metzger recounted much the same story that he gave to Bill…and questioned how Bill had gotten such a headline:
Herrington Was Indicted For Raping A 15-Year Old Girl In Minneapolis In 1993
Indeed - I wondered the very same thing. How did he go from a Grand Jury being seated to an indictment and how does he justify the rape claim when Metzger said that he was "under investigation for it?"
In his exuberance to paint Herrington as even more evil than we already know he is, White further claimed "According to Metzger, he was visiting Mahon when Herrington arrived at Mahon's home with his wife and their three children asking for a place to stay because he was under indictment for raping a 15-year old in a Satanic ritual and was attempting to go into hiding."
Metzger never said that Herrington arrived at Mahon's home. As a matter of fact, Metzger said he never met the man. He also never said that he was under indictment - and he certainly never said that the alleged rape had taken place during a "Satanic ritual." Where in the hell did Bill White conjure up that story? You don't have to answer that as we all know that Bill White's imagination defies rational thought.
Now, as if this wasn't enough…Bill later claimed ""Cliff Herrington and his wife were indicted in Minneapolis, Minnesota in 1993 for raping a 15 year old girl during a Satanic ritual."
Now Andrea Herrington has been made part of Bill's mix and has been indicted, as well.
And... he says, "Tom didn't say I lied." Uh…below is the clip from Metzger's show which clearly demonstrates that, not only did Bill lie, but in his last statement regarding the situation, Metzger says "If anybody asks you about this…there you have it. Anything else added on to that is a BALF-FACED LIE."
Bill has long been known for spin-doctoring and distorting elements of truth to suit his own needs and wishes. However…he has been losing his edge for awhile and this whole shake-up with the NSM and him becoming persona-non-gratis has just sent him around the bend, hence he will do anything to bolster his insatiable ego and to make himself feel like he looks good to others. The trouble is, he keeps revealing what a true liar Bill White is and has been.
Now I am sure that everyone will remember this from the height of Bill's mania:
Herrington Was Indicted For Raping A 15-Year Old Girl In Minneapolis In 1993
Terrible Tommy And Dennis Mahon Tell The Story
Now in this story and on this blog Bill said the following:
"According to Metzger, he was visiting Mahon when Herrington arrived at Mahon's home with his wife and their three children asking for a place to stay because he was under indictment for raping a 15-year old in a Satanic ritual and was attempting to go into hiding."
"Cliff Herrington and his wife were indicted in Minneapolis, Minnesota in 1993 for raping a 15 year old girl during a Satanic ritual."
I said...
"Confirmation of this is needed."
Bill said:
I'm waiting on a physical records search but Tom Metzger's word is good as gold.
Now hear Terrible Tommy Metzger - In his own words. I think Bill is trying to set a world record in how many lies can one man tell...how many distortions of the truth does it take before people wake the hell up? LISTEN FOR YOURSELF
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteIs it just my imagination or does HistoryMike look a lot like Hal? Could they be blood relations? (Sorry, Mikey couldn't resist that one)
ReplyDeleteRemember you heard it first on Nimbusters that Von and Bill formed the NSA (Sledge has spies in the NSA) Also, my sources say that Bill did indeed marry the hefty woman. Bill and Ms. White plan to have little fat trolls running around soon.
He never said Bill White lied at all. He related a vaguem but startlingly similar version of the same story, basically enough to let us know it was true. Terrible Tommy prefers not to be involved in organizations,much less those self-destructing. None of us want to be involved in this scandal.
ReplyDeleteDid Tom say he supported Clif Herrington ?
Did Tom say he supported Jeff Schoep ?
He said enough by not saying much. Tom thinks with foresight, he knows more than he's willing to drop right now. Trust this much, Tom has enough to protect himself from all these wannabes.
NSA Chairman Bill White said :
ReplyDeleteWe've Won
Comrades:
The Battle for the National Socialist Movement is over.
Jeff Schoep and company have been defeated.
His organization -- the organization that has hid pedophilia, adultery, Satanism, and all sorts of bizarrity -- has been exposed and discredited. Almost everyone has left; those who haven't left are not going to in the near future -- it will take a few months of declining momentum and declining glory to persuade them to pull up camp.
The fight has been vicious, but it is over.
Today I've pulled a number of truthful and accurate items exposing Jeff Schoep and various officers of his. Frankly, I had not yet exhausted my arsenal; I have enough material to post ten times a day for another two weeks, even if all my sources dried up tomorrow. I will not do so.
There is no need to continue to fire on an enemy that has been utterly destroyed. Jeff Schoep and company have not surrendered, nor have they made peace. But they have nothing left I want from them -- no more members to give up, no more credibility in their attacks to destroy. The remnants of their organization is a wasteland, and, like the Romans, ubi solitudinarem fecunt pacem appelunt -- where there is a wasteland call it peace.
Of course, any further attacks will be suppressed, but for the moment, I declare an amnesty for all of those National Socialist Movement members who have refused to resign from the NSM. All of you, with the exception of the Schoep and Herrington cliques, will be welcome in our new organization.
Sincerely,
Bill White
As an after thought, weaker men always see any cessation of fighting as a sign of weakness in their opponent. After all, they would not stop fighting until they had beaten their opponent to death -- why would their opponents stop short? Tomorrow I will be amused to see what nonsense has been issued by headquarters. I'm sure the thought of Jeff Schoep wielding a baseball bat against me or a nebulous lawsuit will be the reason attributed for my decision. I leave it up to the public to judge
Vonbluvens step-son arrested.
ReplyDeleteFonzie arrested
Like step-father, like step-son.
"History Mike looks like Hal"
ReplyDeleteHistorymike
versus
Hal Turner
anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"He never said Bill White lied at all. He related a vaguem but startlingly similar version of the same story, basically enough to let us know it was true."
Funny, because White claimed that Tommy never said he lied either. Read the update - and then come back and tell me that Bill White DID NOT LIE!
Geezz...Dense individuals really are starting to irritate me. If you are foolish enough to believe Bill White - and buy into what he says - then by damn you deserve each other. And when he turns on you, you can come tell us all about it - but we probably won't be very sympathetic.
I found this on the net - think it funny then shit - Floyd
ReplyDeleteNSM Application Form:
Name: _______________
Forum Handle: __________88 ___________14/88 _______________SS
Disability/Mental Disorder: ( ) Schizophrenia ( ) Delusions of Grandeur ( ) Tourette’s Syndrome
( ) Obsessive Compulsive Disorder ( ) ADHD ( ) Other ____________________
Which Government assistance program do you rely on? ( ) Social Security
Disability ( ) State Assistance
Gender: ( ) Male
Marital Status: ( ) Single
Position Desired: ( ) Street Activist ( ) BBQ Logistical Specialist ( ) Internet Sycophant
Do you um, like, you know, know any…..girls? ( ) Yes ( ) No
Entrance Examination: This test is designed to determine whether the applicant possesses the necessary skills required to carry out NSM’s revolutionary task of standing in front of public buildings and screaming, as well as organizing and attending BBQ cookouts and promoting NSM on internet forums. You must score at least 51%, but since nobody at NSM HQ knows how to do proportions it really doesn’t matter.
1. Commander Schoep orders Sgt. Jenkins to obtain beer for the upcoming BBQ. Jenkins returns with two 30 packs of Ice House. How did he violate the “Leadership Principle”?
A. Everyone knows that Schoep needs at least one 30 pack at any party for himself; he’s too self-conscious to dance without getting totally ripped.
B. He should have got two kegs.
C. Both A and B
D. SIEG HEIL!!!!
2. What rank comes after Sergeant in the NSM hierarchy of ranks?
A. Fuhrer
B. Marshal of France
C. SS Brigadefurher
D. Petty Officer First Class
Continued on next page….
3. Which individual was not a high official in the Third Reich?
A. Hermann Fegelein
B. Martin Bormann
C. Bob Denver
D. Albert Speer
4. Someone insults NSM on a forum, what do you do?
A. Call them a Jew.
B. Call them a Coward.
C. Call them a Cowardly Jew.
D. While calling them a Jew, make a lot of blatantly homoerotic comments directed at your opponent that actually expose your own latent homosexuality.
E. All of the above.
5. Why do you want to join NSM?
A. I have a long-standing inferiority complex and am completely socially inept
B. I require a support circle of friends to tell me how tough I am.
C. I must repress what my high school therapists called “latent homosexual tendencies”.
D. I enjoy a faux-military life but couldn’t get into the real military due to mental/physical deficiencies.
E. All of the above.
6. How many times does Von Bluvens “quit” posting on VNN in a month
A. 3 times
B. 4 times
C. 5 times
D. 47 times
7. Does Commander Schoep remind you of Hitler?
A. Yes
BONUS QUESTION:
What is the most effective way to achieve a political revolution in the United States?
A. Careful, realistic evaluation of the political climate, a realistic and comprehensive ideology, high quality, intelligent members and activists, a program which takes into account America’s unique political history, realistic and attainable goals for both short and long term, etc.
B. Wave swastika banners and scream SIEG HEIL in front of public buildings while dressed in fake SA uniforms.
MANUAL:
Welcome new member, to NSM. You have joined a prestigious organization dedicated to the preservation of the White Race, National Socialism, and various grilled meats. Did your father never pay attention to you? Well he will now! You will soon find that amidst your new surroundings you will finally feel a sense of social acceptance and confidence you never had back when you were in Junior High and that dickhead Charlie Peebles threw your backpack down the stairs and you couldn’t do anything because he was too big and all the girls were laughing at you…. Oh yes, now that you have your NSM comrades around you, Charlie Peebles wouldn’t DARE throw your backpack down any stairs. Girls may still laugh at you, but Peebles will never fuck with you again, and that’s what is really important in life. Well that and saving the White Race, which is what this is really about. It’s certainly not about making up for past failures and the need for a social support group to support you and your ego.
Remember always that you are a member of NSM; every rally, every march, every BBQ is a victory for our race and cause! Anyone who dares question that reality is either a coward, a Jew, or possibly even that fucker Charlie Peebles. As long as we have each other, we don’t need anything else. Well we need beer. And we need bratwurst. And also the constant love, affection, and approval of Supreme Commander Schoep. That pretty much covers it.
Uniform Requirements: The required elements of the NSM uniform can be obtained at any Wal-Mart for about $30. If you don’t know how to sew your patches on, you may consider using stapler. Otherwise you can contact our NSM Women’s League(Marge) and get them sewn on that way. You will need:
1. Suitable Running shoes (This is in case the cops leave or don’t show up for some reason)
2. Khaki Dickies long-sleeve shirt
3. Dickies pants (Color doesn’t matter but don’t get something outrageous like red or anything with floral patterns)
Other accessories can be found from most militaria dealers. Note that there is no rule governing the use of Third Reich medals and insignia. Feel free to mix and match insignia as you see fit. Would you like SS runes with a Luftwaffe Eagle? No problem!!
NSM Rank Table(Remember that all fellow NSM members should be addressed by their rank. This maintains discipline and also the egos of your fellow NSM comrades):
Enlisted
0 Private
1 Private First Class
2. Private 2.5
3. Corporal
4. Sergeant
5. Awesome Sergeant
6. Radical Bitchin’ Sergeant
7. Sergeant Sergeant
8. Colonel Sergeant Major First Class
9 General Sergeant Sergeant Major Awesome First Class Corporal Sergeant
Officers
0 Lieutenant
1. Better than Lieutenant
2. Major Payne
3. Admiral of the Fleet
4. Navy SEAL 1st Class
5. Mongol Steppe-Chieftain
6. Naughty Schoolgirl who needs to be Punished
7. The Cop from the Village People
8. Field Marshal
9. SS Dalai Lama
10. Commander of the Grill
11. Supreme Commander of the NSM Expeditionary Forces(Jeff Schoep)
12. Furher (Reserved for Hitler, when he returns, as it is written in the prophesy)
Internet Sycophant Tactics
Apart from standing around screaming in front of public buildings and BBQs, one of the most important duties for an NSM member is defending the organization on the Internet. Some complete idiots and cowards simply do not understand Cmndr. Schoep’s bright vision of the future, they will claim they don’t understand how NSM is helping the White Race, or they will ask pestering questions about the Commander’s employment history or lack thereof. These are traitors to our race and must be dealt with via accusations of Jewish ancestry and homoerotic comments. This is the only language these people truly understand.
Many of these treasonous individuals will often question the nature of our numerous street “victories”. Ignore every logical point they make and instead point out that everything the NSM does is a decisive victory. If NSM marches, it’s a victory. If NSM is prevented from marching, it’s still a victory. If the opposition riots- victory, if it doesn’t riot, it’s still a victory. Some idiots question our use of fake Third Reich uniforms and insignia. They are just jealous of our COURAGE!! We alone have the courage and strength to shout Nazi slogans in public, behind barricades manned by at least twice as many riot police in full gear. That takes a lot of courage that these “net-Nazis” simply don’t have.
__________________
LMAOROTFH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!@ above post!
ReplyDeleteVonbluvens thinking about forming his own white supremacist group.
ReplyDeleteLink
Blevins is severely mentally ill who has to take massive dosages of Seroquel and Depokote just in order to function away from mental hospitals.
Blevins lived for years at 1529 Patterson Ave in Roanoke which Bill White has accurately described as a nuthouse for the mentall ill and newly released felons.
If Blevins did form his own group, it would consist of 3 members, Blevins, Bernie, and Michael Schneider. Schneider is currently wanted by the Roanoke police for a variety of warrants.
I think the reason Blevins is upset is that he voted in White's poll and lost severely in it to Bill White.
In conclusion..
Blevins is a professional fuck up. I wish he continues to support Bill White and make a laughing stock out of white nationalism on VNN and other forums.
He does make for good entertainment.
Vonbluvens is forming his own organization. My response can be found here
ReplyDeleteHarry, I think it's a bit low-class of you to make fun of Blevins for a mental disease he cannot help nor control. Bipolar disorder does not necessarily equate to "kook." Even with medications, Blevins will, from time to time, have manic phases which leave him indecisive -- such as the case of "now." He can't help it, as this is how he tries to resolve the conflict.
ReplyDeleteI have had my own difficulties with depression which this information got into the wrong hands and I, too, was made fun of. While I was able to overcome my problems, I won't forget the dismay I felt being made fun of and the things that were said, publically.
You may not like Blevins or the things he represents. But making fun of those with mental diseases is just a classless low blow. I suggest you read up on bipolar disorder before you throw around insults. Btw, I'm no friend of Blevins, I could care less about the guy. Just a casual observer.
test
ReplyDeleteIn the time it takes you to read this post 37 Mexican will have enter this country illegally...unless you are Vonbluvens and then a full 400 will have sneaked into this country!
ReplyDeleteYou make the mistake that most bi-polars are racist. They are not. No one is saying that.
ReplyDeleteMichael Blevins is a racist who just happens to be severely mentally ill. In his case, it is mental illness that drives his racism.
Pointing out that Blevins is severely mentally ill is not attacking all who suffer from the disease.
They are beginning to classify racism as a mental illness. Blevins just happens to be much more ill than most. He's so severely disabled from his mental illness, the Social Security administration declared him indigent.
Blevins mental illness has also lead to his ex-wife of accusing him of physically abusing her and his children. A judge in Roanoke County agreed and has ordered Blevins to stay away from them for the rest of their lives. At least those kids get a disability check in place of Blevins having to pay child support.
But being mentally ill still does not excuse Blevins from his behavior toward his ex-family or toward his hatred of America & jews.
I think it is an asset to all mankind to point out that Blevins is severely mentally ill.
And until Blevins admits he has a mental problem and gets proper treatment for it if it exist, I'll continue to bash him into the ground.
Harry, please don't put words in my mouth. I did NOT say that most bipolars are racists. That is not true. And "they" (that must mean the board of American certified Psychologists?) have not added racism to the DSM-IV as a diagnosable mental disorder. That's almost as bad as having gays on there as a disorder (which was removed in the late 70s I believe).
ReplyDeleteOne thing I'll agree with: Bipolars can get violent toward others or themselves. And that doesn't mean they have to be racists. They also can become severe enough to be disabled and receive social security. That's not a surprise either.
Now you did mention that Blevins is taking seroquel and depakote. These are common medications for bipolar. Sounds to me that he is getting help. If he were not taking anything, he would stay holed up in his home entirely.
Bash him all you wish. But I'm sure everyone knows his medical history by now. It's not really something one can hide.
But Harry, be the better man. Bipolar and racism do not link. The causal factors are not related. Racism comes from ignorance, at least from a base line.
To Nikki:
ReplyDeleteFirst, thanks for exposing a probably-false allegation of "Satanic ritual child sex abuse."
Second, earlier today I sent you, via private email, the URL's of websites containing some of the more articulate racist writings. Whenever you have the time and resources to do so, you might want to consider examining actual racist ideologies with the aim of developing responses that might actually have at least some small chance of getting through to at least some committed racists and opening up their minds.
Third, I'd like to make a request: Next time you have occasion to talk about Cliff Herrington and his wife, could you please make it clear that most Satanists aren't exactly fond of her attempt to blend Satanism and Nazism either? Unfortunately, your comments so far have made it sound as if it's perfectly normal and natural for Satanists to be neo-Nazis. That's not the case. As I explained in a reply to an earlier blog entry, plenty of us think it's ridiculous for a Satanist to be a neo-Nazi.
If you agree to mention the above in future broadcasts whenever this topic comes up, I, in turn, would be delighted to help you research further the overlap that unfortunately does exist between the neo-Nazi scene and the Satanist scene. I'd love to do what I can to help you - or perhaps some other anti-racist activist - embarrass that sector into nonexistence. But I would prefer to work with an anti-racist activist who doesn't lump all Satanists including myself into the same category.
Well, I'm as looney as batshit, fond of the writings of Satanist Anton Lavey, worshipful of the crypto-fascist industrial drone of heathenite music-maven Boyd Rice, virulently opposed to anti-Semitism and racism, fanatically pro-Israel, generally self-indulgent and fully decadent, and always prone to vote a straight Republican ticket.
ReplyDeleteYou mean we don't all fit, neatly, into little boxes?
Damn.
And, you know, essentially that is my problem, in a nutshell, with the entire anti-racist movement: It seems as if Leftists are continually pointing the finger at conservatives as being the ONLY racists operating.
ReplyDeleteNever mind that the radical fringe of the anti-war movement has thrown its ideological lot in with Islamics whose deep-seated hatred of America and Israel they make no bones of proclaiming.
Never mind that conservatives have proved, time and again, that they insist only on a society of standards and values, regardless of race and ethnicity.
Never mind the anti-Semitism of Louis Farrakhan, or the "kill whitey" histrionics proffered by Malik Zulu Shabazz.
Never mind that Islam , as an ideology, can operate irrespective of racial background.
Criticize radical Islamics or the Left's unswerving support for their torrential violent activities, and you will be banned, booted, castigated, horsewhipped, and feces-spattered from here to Ground Zero.
However, raise your blogosphere banner AGAINST the "Imperialistic Zio-Nazi Warmongering Cabal of Bu$Hitler" , and you could probably win yourself a free date with Susan Sarandon.
Have you Lefties ever considered how much your political beliefs actually dovetail WITH those of NSM, David Duke, Bill White, etc.? Are you guys really sure you're on the opposite sides of the fence?
Not attacking anyone in particular. Just venting.
So...
...Feel free to start the volleys of verbal outrage now.
Diane Vera - I cant speak for Nikki - but I dont believe that all satanists are nazis anymore then I believe that all rednecks are members of the KKK.
ReplyDeleteAs you know, I received your email concerning ways of getting people who are in the racist movement to have a change of heart, well I know that it can done but I can also tell you it isnt that easy.
I spent many years in the racist movement starting with the KKK and ending with the Church of Jesus Christ/Christian/Aryan Nations. (learning God was a racist and that maybe Hitler was a prophet of God )
There is nothing you or anyone could have said to me, after I had been in the "movement" for awhile that would have changed my mind.
You could have gave me logicial arguements, political arguements, religious arguements, hell you could have hit me in the head with a two by four and nothing would have made me realize I was wrong.
It took a personal ephinany in 1992 for me to even begin to think about the things I belived in and the belief system that was both my family and motivator. Being told that my son would have to be killed because he was a "genetic defect" turned the light on and even then change didnt happen overnight. I didnt go to bed one day as a nazi and wake up the next day wanting to hold hands and sing kumbaya.
In the early years of my racist life it would have been possible to change the racist ideas I was developing, which is why I feel we should reach out to the young people who are just becoming involved in hate groups, but trying to change Davis Duke or Tom Metgzer with logicial thoughts or counter political ideas, isnt likely going to happen, unless they have a personal ephinany.
Hope this helps.
Floyd
borg you wrote "Never mind that conservatives have proved, time and again, that they insist only on a society of standards and values, regardless of race and ethnicity"
ReplyDeletethat would be easier to believe if conservative people like Ann Coulter didnt advocate things such as invading Islamist country,killing thier leaders and men and converting thier women and children to christianinty.
The anti-semitism Farrakhan is just as wrong as the anti-semitism of David Duke - and most people I know and work with would agree.
And because I am against this war in Iraq doesnt make me anti-american,
and finally I have stated several time in my public presentations that the radical Islam of Osama Bin Laden, doesnt represent all of Islam anymore then Pat Robertson represents all of Christisdom.
Both are extremist - who use religion to divide and hate.
Floyd
ps forgive my mispellings, I didnt have spell check on.
Anonymouse,
ReplyDeletePointing the fact that Blevins is mentally ill is doing a service for mankind.
To not mention that Blevins is mentally ill is would be to normalize his behavior.
Most racism is based on mental illness, rather it be paranoia, habitual lying, bi-polar disorder, schizophrenia. Blevins also suffers from schizophrenia & is grandoise.
They have proposed putting racism into the DSM-IV for mental disorders but have not done so yet. It was all over the news and OPP had an article about it.
To compare racism to gays is total absurdity. There is nothing wrong in being gay. There is everything wrong in being a racist.
Michael Blevins is abnormal in every possible way. It is very important to show the world that Blevins is severely mentally ill.
Not all the mentally ill are racist. But nearly all the racist are mentally ill.
FCochran said...
ReplyDeleteDiane Vera - I cant speak for Nikki - but I dont believe that all satanists are nazis anymore then I believe that all rednecks are members of the KKK.
Very glad to hear that. I'd appreciate it very much if you could mention the above on your show next time the topic of neo-Nazi Satanists comes up.
FCochran said...
As you know, I received your email concerning ways of getting people who are in the racist movement to have a change of heart, well I know that it can done but I can also tell you it isnt that easy.
I can imagine it isn't. These groups do have a pretty darned all-encompassing ideology.
FCochran said...
It took a personal ephinany in 1992 for me to even begin to think about the things I belived in and the belief system that was both my family and motivator. Being told that my son would have to be killed because he was a "genetic defect" turned the light on and even then change didnt happen overnight. I didnt go to bed one day as a nazi and wake up the next day wanting to hold hands and sing kumbaya.
In the early years of my racist life it would have been possible to change the racist ideas I was developing, which is why I feel we should reach out to the young people who are just becoming involved in hate groups, but trying to change Davis Duke or Tom Metgzer with logicial thoughts or counter political ideas, isnt likely going to happen, unless they have a personal ephinany.
Probably true. However, for the sake of those young people, it would be desirable for some anti-racist website to present coherent refutations of the core ideas of David Duke and the other folks whose URL's I sent you.
Similarly, Borg, I tire of hearing the term "anti-Semitic" tossed every time a person questions the military actions of the Israelis.
ReplyDeleteIf a Norman Finkelstein dares to examine the Holocaust industry, he is a "self-hating Jew" who wears a swastika. Never mind that his own parents were victims of the Holocaust.
I agree with Floyd that Farrakhan's brand of anti-Semitism is disturbing, but I do not hear Louie advocating Jewish genocide or forced removal the way that the Nazis do. Perhaps you could link us to an example if I am mistaken, Borg.
Well, actually Mr. Brooks, the infamous Nation of Islam leader , whom I believe, is named Khalid Abdul Mohammed, did state, in reference to "honkies", baldly:
ReplyDelete"..We will kill the women, we will kill the children, we will kill the babies. We will kill the crippled, we will kill 'em all. We will kill the faggot, we will kill the lesbian, we will kill them all...Kill the old ones too...Goddamnit, if they are in a wheelchair, push them off a cliff in Cape Town...I said kill the blind, kill the crippled, kill the crazy. Goddamnit, and when you get through killing them all, go to the goddamned graveyard and dig up the grave and kill 'em , goddamn it, again. 'Cause they didn't die hard enough." --Khalid Abdul Mohammed, quoted in Apocalypse Culture 2, By Adam Parfrey, Ed.
It occurs to me I might be mistaken about Shabbazz, or simply be confusing him with Khalid Mohammed, but I have heard the audio of this particular speech (given at Kean College, New Jersey), and, although it has a certain psychotic, balls-to-the-wall appeal for me, personally, I still find it's outright message of genocidal racism to be disgusting.
Harry F Schwartz said...
ReplyDeleteMost racism is based on mental illness, rather it be paranoia, habitual lying, bi-polar disorder, schizophrenia.
You also wrote:
They have proposed putting racism into the DSM-IV for mental disorders but have not done so yet. It was all over the news and OPP had an article about it.
In my opinion the idea of racism being a mental illness is ridiculous. Racism is an ideology - a bad and harmful ideology - but not a mental illness. There have been plenty of other harmful ideologies too.
You also wrote:
But nearly all the racist are mentally ill.
But almost every fringe group is likely to attract more than its share of mentally ill people, regardless of whether the fringe group in question revolves around good ideas or bad ideas.
Admittedly, racist groups may well attract an even larger share of mentally ill people than other fringe groups. The wackier and more cultlike racist groups may also induce or worsen mental illnesses.
Still, in my opinion, stereotyping racists as mentally ill is a cheap substitute for analyzing and refuting racist ideology.
A further example of this sort, Mr. Brooks, might equally be the anti-Israel rally held at the Israeli Consulate in San Francisco last Thursday, in which participants wore shirts stating, "We tried it your way, now we try the AK."
ReplyDeleteThe refernce was to an AK 47-style assault rifle, popular among Jihadis, and the t-shirt also featured a picture of this particular weapon.
This particular protest was documented by Isis' right-wing counterpart "Zombie".
Diane - let me first assure you that I have received your emails and have read them. I understand that this is something that you are passionate about and, like you, when I am really into something I tend to be rather tenacious.
ReplyDeleteNext, let me assure you that I have been to all of those websites that you listed many times over. Yes, I agree that more needs to be done in the area of scholarly refutation of the message that they are sending out. But...sometimes there is the question of time and manpower.
As to the Nazi's and Satanist. Dann, the young man who has helped us so much in exposing the Joy of Satan Ministries has asked if can submit an article for publication dealing with just that issue - of course, I said yes.
So...it now seems that you want something more than that - you want a public announcement of some sort worked into one of our broadcasts saying that "most Satanists aren't exactly fond of her attempt to blend Satanism and Nazism either?" Well, Diane, like Floyd, I don't believe that all Satanists are Nazi's - however, I do believe that a larger number of Nazi's are Satanists than meets the eye.
You are correct - there is an "overlapping."
Right now, however, I am more concerned about the fact that there are still a large number of juveniles being indoctrinated into the Joy of Satan cult - and that is unacceptable and takes priorty as far as I am concerned.
Additionally, I don't mind admitting that I have a personal problem with Satanism. I recognize the fact that it is your right to engage in that philosophy just as it is the right of others to claim race as their religion or or to worship themselves. On one level, I can say to each his own. However, I do not believe that I am the person to be defending Satanism in any way. That is why when Dann made that request, I felt that he would be much more qualified.
Since you seem to want to see the message of the racists refuted, perhaps you will follow Dann's lead and submit an article.
Now...to Borg.;)
First - ya gotta know that I love ya, and you make me laugh quite often. But, damn man! Not everyone fits into those "liberal" and "conservative" boxes. However, if I had to choose I would probably flop somewhere in between and it would be a crap shoot.
I think your premise that "Never mind that conservatives have proved, time and again, that they insist only on a society of standards and values, regardless of race and ethnicity" is pretty hysterical.
Those "conservatives" who are running the country right now could give a rat's ass about standards and values. And if you are a thinking, breathing, rational human being (which you are) then you know that.
You have the corrupt and the opportunists and then you have the damned Fundamentalists - and if you think the Fundies don't play the race card - you need to think again.
The bottom line here is that at some point and on some issues we are all going to be in agreement - and if one of those issues turns out to be as devastating and incapacitating to this country as I believe it will be - then everything else is going to be moot - including those labels.
Dear Nikki,
ReplyDeleteAgreed, for the most part. I wasn't, by any means, attempting to attack a group like CAH, which I view as a very mainstream sort of anti-racist group.
I , instead, had in mind certain, uh, slightly more radical groups who, while they may be superficially anti-racist, seem to have a heavy hand dipped into extreme left, and anti-American causes.
For the record, I still see little difference in the "National Socialism" of Bill White and NSM and the "International Socialism" of several varities of scraggly Mao-worshippers who shall remain nameless.
It is always a pleasure, though , to see CAH help bring down the Bill White's, Hal Turner's, and Michael Von Bluvens's (?) of the world, and I think the work you do is great, and very important.
So please don't feel my rant was personally directed at ANYONE.
(Well, except for Dariush. LMAOROTF!)
"Those "conservatives" who are running the country right now could give a rat's ass about standards and values."--Nikki
ReplyDelete--
And, of course, I disagree with this completely.
Take care,
Borg
LOL @~~~Borg. I know you weren't directing those comments at us - and thanks for the kudos.
ReplyDeleteAs far as our disagreement is concerned - I know that you don't agree. And while I really, really detest Bush and Cheney - you and I have still managed to be more than civil to each other. We have discussed things here and in email. And, basically, I think we like each other. Consequently, working together toward common goals is possible.
I think so many times people have forgotten how to agree to disagree with each other and still remain friends. And that is too bad. One of the things that makes this country so great, in my opinion, is the fact that people from every walk of life, from the four corners of the world, from every religion, and from every ethnicity live, work, & play right alongside each other. Except for the Nazi's, of course.
HA HA HA!
ReplyDeleteWell said, Stefan. Glad to see you back here.
EB: "Have you Lefties ever considered how much your political beliefs actually dovetail WITH those of NSM, David Duke, Bill White, etc.? Are you guys really sure you're on the opposite sides of the fence?
EB meet the British National Party. They've dropped the swastika, purged "anti-Semites" from their ranks and have now set their sights squarely on a target that should warm the cockles of your "patriotic" heart.
I'm sure you'll get along famously.
P.S. -- I can't help but wonder what wise words you would have graced this blog with had you been here back when they were giving their take on the Cronulla race riots. Probably something along the lines of ole' "ajax saith" in the comments section of the above linked post.
I can't stand it anymore.
ReplyDeleteVonbluvens is embarssing himself on VNN and it hurts even me to see it.
Nikki said...
ReplyDeleteNext, let me assure you that I have been to all of those websites that you listed many times over. Yes, I agree that more needs to be done in the area of scholarly refutation of the message that they are sending out.
Actually, I was thinking more in terms of common-sense refutation than scholarly refutation, although the latter would be highly desirable too. What's needed, more than scholarly counterarguments, is for someone to try to make counterarguments that would be likely to make sense to the same kinds of young people most likely to be drawn to racist groups. These kids are, as a general rule, not scholars. What's needed most, in my opinion, is for someone to write things that will make sense in terms of the mindsets and life experiences of the kinds of people likely to be drawn to racist groups.
I don't feel qualified to write such an article all by muself. I have some ideas, but I'd need to work with someone who knows more than I do about the life experiences of most members of racist groups. (Floyd Cochran, would you be willing to work with me on this? If not, can you refer me to someone else who might be both qualified and interested?)
I can easily come up with lots of good arguments as to why a Satanist should not be a neo-Nazi, and I've apparently succeeded in planting seeds of doubt in the minds of at least two young men in my forums, including one who was brought up in a neo-Nazi family. But I am far less confident in my ability to come up with arguments likely to make sense to a more "normal" person who is feeling drawn to neo-Nazi or other racist ideology. To accomplish the latter, I would need to brainstorm with someone more knowledgeable about these folks - such as perhaps Floyd Cochran, who once believed in racist ideology himself.
Nikki said...
ReplyDeleteYou have the corrupt and the opportunists and then you have the damned Fundamentalists - and if you think the Fundies don't play the race card - you need to think again.
I consider the growth of fundamentalism, both here in the U.S.A. and worldwide, to be one of the greatest threats to the well-being of the world.
However, it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that fundies in general "play the race card." Fundamentalists hold a variety of different attitudes on the topic of race. Some indeed "play the race card," others don't.
Nikki said...
ReplyDeleteAs to the Nazi's and Satanist. Dann, the young man who has helped us so much in exposing the Joy of Satan Ministries has asked if can submit an article for publication dealing with just that issue - of course, I said yes.
Glad to hear that.
So...it now seems that you want something more than that - you want a public announcement of some sort worked into one of our broadcasts saying that "most Satanists aren't exactly fond of her attempt to blend Satanism and Nazism either?" Well, Diane, like Floyd, I don't believe that all Satanists are Nazi's - however, I do believe that a larger number of Nazi's are Satanists than meets the eye.
In other words, most Satanist Nazis are probably hiding their Satanism from their fellow Nazis. However, they still aren't anywhere near the majority, as the crisis in NSM proves. The Christian Identity folks, and other Christians, are far more numerous.
In any case, I don't see why this is a reason why, on your program, you can't include a disclaimer saying, at the very least, that not all Satanists are Nazis. I can see why you might be hesitant to state that most Satanists aren't Nazis, since you probably don't know enough about the Satanist scene to have any idea what the proportions might be. But I would appreciate it very much if, when you have occasion to talk about Satanism on your radio, you could try to avoid insinuating that all or most of us are Nazis.
Nikki said...
You are correct - there is an "overlapping."
There is an "overlapping" between Nazis and Christians too. Ditto for Nazis and Pagans. So?
Right now, however, I am more concerned about the fact that there are still a large number of juveniles being indoctrinated into the Joy of Satan cult - and that is unacceptable and takes priorty as far as I am concerned.
I don't see how one concern rules out the other. There are some Satanists, such as Dann, who have been working for years on exposing the JoS and in some cases trying to close them down. I too have criticized them for years, though in a more restrained way; the main focus of my own criticixm has been on how their system inherently pressures people into making a premature commitment. (The first step in their system is a dedication ritual. That's like getting married to someone you just met yesterday.)
It you really want to close down the JoS, that's going to take a lot of hard work. All I'm asking you for is an occasional one-sentence disclaimer - not much work at all.
Additionally, I don't mind admitting that I have a personal problem with Satanism.
Well, I have a big problem with the more conservative forms of Christianity; yet I try to avoid making defamatory overgeneralizations even about fundamentalist Christians. See my previous post, above.
An apparently big part of the typical racist mindset, after all, is the tendency to make defamatory overgeneralizations about groups of people one dislikes. So, it seems to me that an important part of opposing the racist mindset would be to discourage - actively and consistently - the tendency to make defamatory overgeneralizations about any group of people, including groups one dislikes - even about racists themselves, for that matter.
Diane Vera- you are brilliant!
ReplyDeleteBravo!!
How I've opposed neo-Nazism in my own online forums:
ReplyDeleteNeo-Nazis don't participate in my forums very often, at least not openly. I can recall only three occasions on which a neo-Nazi did openly participate in my forums for a while. Two out of three ended up leaving neo-Nazism, although not immediately.
When dealing with neo-Nazis in my forums, one thing I've always done has been to get very strict about enforcing my forums' rules against personal insults. This meant both (1) that the neo-Nazi was not allowed to post crude racial slurs and (2) that anyone responding to the neo-Nazi was not allowed to resort to ad hominem arguments such as calling neo-Nazis "trailer trash." This rule forced everyone to think and to post real arguments rather than just off-the-cuff visceral reactions.
The fact that no one was allowed to insult the neo-Nazis was, in itself, something the neo-Nazis just weren't used to at all, and it probably threw them off-balance. They're used to people just insulting them and not paying any attention to their ideology.
When debating with them, I made three main kinds of counter-arguments:
1) I pointed out the inherently conformist nature of neo-Nazism and how that's bad for Satanists.
2) I struck at what I see as the core idea of anti-Semitic ideology, namely the allegation that Jews themselves are the most racist and nationalistic people on Earth, and hence that everyone else too needs to be as racist and nationalistic as they are, or else we'll all get slaughtered or enslaved. The simplest counterargument is to point to the existence of lots and lots of anti-Zionist Jews, both on the Left and among the ultra-Orthodox who believe that the state of Israel is illegitimate because it was founded by someone other than the Messiah. I also pointed out that the vast majority of Zionists aren't Jews but Christians who believe in Dispensationalist theology. [Note to Borg: The point of this argument is not to condemn Zionism, but just to dismantle the heart of anti-Semitic ideology. Please don't start an argument with me about Zionism.]
3) I pointed out that liberal Jewish activists have been among the staunchest defenders of religious freedom in this country, benefitting all religious minorities including Satanists.
Of the above three kinds of counter-arguments, only #2 is likely to mean anything to a non-Satanist involved in Nazism.
I just now got email from Floyd Cochran saying he is willing to work with me. Hopefully, together, we can develop at least a few more simple but strong counterarguments.
Well Stephan Schmidt,
ReplyDeleteAs I live and breathe, it is good to see you managed to pull your wee widdle winkie back in your pants long enough to drop by with a lame, nonsensical attempt at insult.
Unfortunately, in the words of the immortal Jim Goad, you will have to wait several hours to "savor my loins".
Until then, let me assure you, that total acceptance of the ideology of militant Islamic terrorists is not a prerequisite for considering oneself intellectualy orthodox in regards to one's deepfelt anti-racist sentiments.
Nor does support of Israel disqualify, and/or otherwise paint an individual in a negative or unflattering shade, as far as that individual's utter condemnation and rebuke of WP hate groups.
But, hey, maybe you're right. I mean, there is that hardcore neo-Nazi group known as the ADL, who continually make no secret of their support for the imperialistic, Zionist entity that has spilled so much innocent blood in the midst of so many otherwise peaceful Arab nations.
However, I don't have time, right at the moment, to pick your asinine little post to pieces, or remind you, once again, how much of a self-described "basket case" you really are. So hold your breath till you turn blue, and I'll be back in a few hours.
Ketcha later.
BTW, Dee, that you feel that Schmidt's post was "well said" speaks volumes about you.
Here's a hint: raise your standards of excellence, and you'll be a happier person.
Borg